Penny Tompkins & James Lawley on Questions, Quests, and advanced Clean Facilitator training happening January 2022


modeling, clean, symbolic, client, learning, quest, model, convergence, training, developmental, working, penny, modelers, question, james, experts, moment, language, talk, happening


This is a 13 minute interview with Penny Tompkins & James Lawley


In 2015 I got the idea to create an advanced facilitator training to help me continue to hone my skills. I was so pleased when Penny Tompkins and James Lawley agreed to bring their goodness to the California coast and share what was new, inspired, and in their current focus. We call this event Clean Convergence. It has been a blend of fundamentals training, a retreat, an advanced workshop, and (beginning in 2017) Clean Language Interviewing.

Seven years later we are still going strong.

For January 2022, we will focus on two different areas. The first is the Symbolic Modeling Retreat where over three consecutive Saturdays you are facilitated toward your own desired outcome, can watch others be facilitated, and have the opportunity to ask questions at the end of each day. Places in this retreat are strictly limited. 

The second is honing your clean facilitation skills through participation in the Advanced Clean Facilitator workshop, previously called Enhancing and Integrating your Symbolic Modeling Skills. For this workshop we will meet over three consecutive days (January 28, 29, 30) and will be focused on fine tuning your modeling skills. Or as Penny so wonderfully calls it, gaining excellence in “sending your clients on a quest”.

Please enjoy this interview. It is short, interesting, and if you choose the video it is a lovely thing to see and hear the excitement Penny and James still carry in teaching this methodology. More than 25 years in and it still captures their passion!

If you are keen on learning more about Clean Convergence 2022, you can find links at the bottom of this page.


Sharon Small

Interview Transcript with Penny Tompkins & James Lawley

SPEAKERS: Penny Tompkins, James Lawley, Sharon Small

Sharon Small  00:23

Hi, I’m Sharon with the Clean Language Institute. I’m here with Penny Tompkins and James Lawley and we are going to talk a little bit about Clean Convergence 2022, what Clean Convergence is and why you might want to join us. So welcome, Penny. Welcome, James.

James Lawley  00:43

Thank you for sharing.

Sharon Small  00:47

Nice to have you here.

Penny Tompkins  00:48

Thank you

James Lawley  00:50

from across the pond.

Sharon Small  00:53

Previous focus areas of Clean Convergence have been things like working with choice points within a symbolic modeling session, working with symptoms and systems, how to look at those, pay attention to those with symbolic modeling. Big stuff, defining moments, life patterns even. And last year, we did some working with emergence. So this year in planning Clean Convergence, you guys mentioned working taking a deep dive into the modeling process. And any you were just saying something really interesting about modeling as a

Penny Tompkins 01:36



Going On A Quest

Penny Tompkins  01:39

And if you know the roots of the word for question, it is quest. So a question, since a person’s attention on a quest to find an answer. And that is the core process that we do in symbolic modeling, asking the Clean Language questions, because we want to direct the clients attention through our question, to a place where they can have insight, they can discover something new about themselves, where our question has the maximum opportunity for them to learn.

Penny Tompkins  02:31

So a lot of the art and skill of what we do, and how we do modeling, is by learning where to direct the client’s attention. And it’s an art form and in the training in 2022, gosh, just a couple of months away, then we are going to spend time with a group of modelers in how we do that, and how people don’t have to do with the way we do it. But to help participants find their way of asking those questions so that they have maximum effect for the client and their metaphors. And that is, we’re going to be doing that in a number of ways. But that is essentially going to be the core of what we do, because that is the core of what we do.

Sharon Small  03:33

So the quest of the question, and the question sending the client on a quest, and being able to track that. Thank you. So James, I was hoping that you could speak a little bit about the structure of how are you and Penny going to be taking us, because I’m including myself in this too, Clean Convergence is my advanced training playground. So how are you going to be taking us through this learning?


The Structure of Learning

James Lawley  04:06

Well, you know, I think there’s a very interesting model, developmental model, called the Dreyfus. And Dreyfus developmental model that looked at how people go from novices, to beginners, to competent, to proficient, to experts. And the key thing about that is you have to have a different learning environment or way of learning as you go through those levels.

James Lawley  04:35

And so, classic training is great at the early stages, but this module is aimed at the higher levels. And so what we’re going to do, instead of us delivering a training, we’re going to look at some videos of live sessions, and we’re going to take them apart and we’re going to debrief what happens that means we invite the client to go on this quest or this quest this quest. How we are making those choices? We’re going to use group activities to work with some live between the group and, and for people to recognize their own choices and learn in the moment from their own choices and from their colleagues. And then of course, there’ll be activities people are doing and they’ll be getting personal feedback during those activities from us, and the other expert resources who are helping us out. So that’ll be the main kind of ways that the process will work.

Sharon Small  05:51

There is a prerequisite for this being an advanced Symbolic Modeling facilitation training, having a working knowledge of Clean Language and symbolic modeling the PRO model, how to ask the clean questions and having some experience having put some Symbolic Modeling and Clean Language into practice. So when this is a little bit different environment, and we’re using this idea of a quest, what would you like the participants of this training to come away being able to do that might be a little different from what they can do now?


The Next Step

Penny Tompkins  06:34

Well, I would say, for everyone on the on the park all the participants on the training, to take their next developmental step. We operate from a developmental way of thinking, which, which means that you can only take your next step. So whatever level someone comes in at, if they can leave having moved on their knowledge, their practice, one step now, and maybe more. But that is what I’m after. Because that’s how you build. And once you’ve taken a few steps, it becomes easier to take the next and the next. And that’s what I want to see happening with support from all of us.

Penny Tompkins  07:29

What about you James?

James Lawley  07:33

So, you know, we’ve been asking Clean Language questions for over 25 years. And the interesting thing is they’re the same Clean Language questions that we asked 25 years ago. And they’re the same Clean Language questions that people get on their first Clean Language Training. So what makes the difference between, as people rise up that developmental curve, is how they use those questions. Where do they send people? What kind of quest do they send them on? And in order to do that, it’s a selectional process. How does the facilitator select, out of the all the information that clients given you, and they always give you a massive amount, how do they select this piece to ask the question of that invites them to go off on that quest. And what’s happened over 25 years, we just got better and better at selecting the piece that is a valuable piece for that particular client at that particular moment. That’s really what we are experts at doing. And all of those wonderful topics that you talked about, that we’ve covered in the last six years, every single one of them is predicated on on our ability to model and then apply it in those application areas. And so the modeling skill is the absolute bedrock of everything that we do, and there is no coincidence that we call it symbolic modeling.

Nuance and Group Support

Sharon Small  09:24

Yeah, and and it seems to me over the years of learning this there is always something new. There’s always a nuance of a way to get to something valuable for the client a little more quickly, by noticing something different. By, like you were saying Penny, by pointing their attention just in a little bit more refined manner. And one thing with Clean Convergence that’s been really interesting to watch and wonderful over the years is seeing quite a variety of learners from people who are just really beginning to dig into symbolic modeling to those who have been using it with clients for years. And and the group really working with each other and everyone learning at some subtle level of change. So that’s been really brilliant.

Sharon Small  10:18

Is there anything else that you might want to say to anybody who’s watching this video to encourage them if they’re wondering, ‘gosh, is this for me?’

James Lawley  10:29

Well, we’ll be looking at Symbolic Modeling where we take in the the context, mostly, of working with a client. But actually, developing the skills to model in this way, is just supremely useful anywhere.

A Great Example – Modeling In Action

James Lawley  10:51

Yesterday we were talking to a special needs teacher in a school, and how the ability to model what’s happening in the classroom, what’s happening with the individual children who need her help, the value of being able to see that going on and not get caught in the detail and the story that’s going but to be able to pick out the vital pieces, the patterns, the behaviors between not only the children, but the interaction between their teachers, and that comes from ability to learn how to model.

James Lawley  11:29

And so here was an example. She was observing a class and then [had] to write a report on it. But what she was effectively doing was applying all these modeling skills to that without asking a single Clean Language question. And I am sure she could not have pinpointed such really interesting things without having that ability to pick out the stuff that comes from a modelers perspective. Penny, would you like to add anything?

Penny Tompkins  12:02

Just, for me, one thing I love about Clean Convergence, and this format that we’re going to be doing, is the time we have for questions and answers, because people learn a lot. You can plan a training, you can plan all sorts of things, but people can ask about what’s relevant in the moment. And we can all learn from that. And then that will spark something in someone else. So that people’s learning needs are being met in the moment by having the time just to sit and discuss things for a little bit. So as well as doing one thing I like about this event, is having the time together to do that. That’s one of the special things for me. Thank you.

Sharon Small  12:55

Well, this has been really nice. So what we’re really looking at is the, I like that expression, the bedrock of of how to help a client quest and find out more about what they’d like to have happen and bring it into their their landscape.

Sharon Small  13:17

So I did want to just end with Clean Convergence 2022 will be in January. We do have a personal development retreat that we’re taking wait-list names for. So if you’re interested in the retreat, please let let us know.

Places still available

Sharon Small  13:36

And we do still have places on this advanced training where Penny Tompkins and James Lawley will be really getting into the meat of the kind of modeling and kind of questing that we do in the Symbolic Modeling process. And again, we just ask that you have a working knowledge of Clean Language, Symbolic Modeling, and understand how to utilize the PRO model, because that is an important aspect of this work. And is there anything else that you guys would like to add before we finish our little chat today?

Penny Tompkins  14:11

Just thank you for inviting us to come along and have a chat.

James Lawley  14:14

Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it. It should be great.

Sharon Small  14:18

Thank you both for years of such great learning and I can’t wait for January.

Penny Tompkins  14:27

Me too. Thank you

What Can You Do Next? 

JOIN US or find out more


or Register Here! 

Questions, curiosity? Contact Sharon 

Clean Language Un-conference: Metaphorum 2021

Clean Language Un-conference: Metaphorum 2021

Thank you for being here and your interest in the upcoming Metaphorum 2021.

Metaphorum is an unconference created by Judy Rees as a way of supporting the blossoming Clean Community and providing a shared space for any and all of us to discuss, learn, connect, and share about everything Clean and, more particularly, how you are using and learning about Clean methodologies in your work and daily life.

I wanted to say hello and share with you my hopes for Metaphorum 2021 happening on the 3rd of December.

It is my pleasure to be the new steward of Metaphorum. I chose the term steward rather than owner as this is a community-supported event and, although I might be managing the organizational bits, it is your participation, your sessions, and your generosity of spirit that kindle the creative nature of this event.

In the Spirit of Clean

In the spirit of a clean stance and (mostly) emergent event, Metaphorum 2021, I would like to introduce some underlying principles and ideas I think have bolstered Metaphorum over the years.

We encourage positive behaviors that promote social acceptance and friendship. We support others, including new participants, in bringing their ideas and expertise to light.


We want your ideas, your experience, your learnings. This is what makes us stronger as a community and reaches across the globe to keep us connected.

Bring what you know, what you are curious about, any questions you have, any learnings you have implemented, and/or experience(s) you have put into practice. Metaphorum is a place where you have the opportunity to share and shine.


Bring an eagerness to discover and learn something. Ask yourself: what can I notice, learn, share, contribute?


Enjoyment & Learning
We want you to enjoy your time and learn something new. You are welcome to move around and between sessions creating a fluid space for learning. Roam until you find just what serves you at that moment in time.


Quality Over Quantity:
Many sessions will be running in parallel. It is not about how many people come to your session, but rather who they are and the curiosity they share with you on your topic. One or two quality connections is incredibly valuable. Think small.

Whether it’s a discussion about working cleanly in healthcare, using clean questions with adolescents, developing clean coaching skills, learning about clean language and its use in sports, clean and gaming, or how clean language can boost your barista skills…there is always at least one other person that will find your topic curious if not downright geek-a-licious.

And a Couple of Ideas

Working Emergently:
Within the constraints of the medium (ie Zoom), this event is a blending of some structure and the opportunity for emergent sessions as inspiration strikes.


Starts Rather Than Finishes:
If you find an idea or learning compelling, reach out to others and continue your connection well past this one-day virtual event.

If you meet someone and you are having a great conversation, feel free to take that conversation to your own zoom portal or other online service. You can come back to Metaphorum when you are done.

Metaphorum for the future

I have participated in Metaphorum in some shape or form over the last five years and have seen it change and grow and develop in that time.

I would like to see Metaphorum continue to be a place where you can bring your creativity, your experience, your experimentations in the Clean domain and share with others through sessions, discussions, slide shows, video presentations, or however you feel lead within the technical capacity we have.

It is the community

Although there will be well-known individuals providing sessions (people like Penny Tompkins & James Lawley, Marian Way, Angela Dunbar, and Judy Rees to name just a few) the main purpose of Metaphorum is to provide multiple opportunities for those of you who might not normally have a place to share or discuss your expertise to do just that.

If you have already purchased your ticket for Metaphorum 2021, THANK YOU! It will be good to see you there and I look forward to your participation in the development of this year’s event.

Join us?

If you have not already opted in to spend the day with us, we would love to have you join us for Metaphorum 2021 this coming December 3rd. There are still about 40 places left with early bird tickets available until the 15th of October. If you are curious about this unconference you can find out more and/or register using the button below.

I feel very strongly about cultivating diversity along with solid Clean Language skills and your contributions can help develop both.

Register here: https://buytickets.at/cleanlanguageinstitute/584740

Please let me know if you have any questions. You can subscribe to future emails about Metaphorum and other clean stuff that happens throughout the year, here.

Put Your Pants on Last (and other small tweaks to make working at home work for you)

Put Your Pants on Last (and other small tweaks to make working at home work for you)

A few quick and dirty tricks to showing up at your best online

Recently, I have been receiving emails about working from home, mostly from people who have been working from home for a while. I am included in this lot. What I have not gotten from these emails are some of the most important tips that can make being online more comfortable and that work in a pinch.

Here are some of my hard-learned secrets…

Put your pants on last

I know this is the Clean Language Institute and it is still true that a provocative photo will catch your attention faster than anything…

And that’s what I wanted to have happen; your attention captured.

Most virtual meeting programs – Skype, Zoom, etc – only show what the camera sees and that is from your chest to the top of your head. You can wear anything (or nothing) below the waist and no one will know.

But don’t forget to turn your camera off if you get up from your desk. Not doing so would be tantamount to keeping your mic on when taking a bathroom break — and we’ve all seen that played out in the movies and on the news.

If you get up to grab a cuppa or head to the restroom for a break, THEN you MUST turn off your camera or EVERYONE will see what you have (or do not have) on below the waist.

Use Your Tech

Running late? Working from home in your pajama’s (we all do it)? Zoom has a feature that will let you touch up your appearance in a pinch.

Oooo. Scary — I just woke up and am late for a virtual meeting!


Throw on a cardigan or blouse and jump online. Zoom will smooth out your crazy hair and make you look like a million bucks (or at least a ten spot) in a jiff!

Worth a million bucks.

Go to Zoom > Preferences (move your cursor over the Zoom in your menu, choose preferences)
Choose Video (when inside the preference menu click on video)
Under my video, the third box down is “touch up my appearance”

This will smooth out your crazy hair and reduce any skin anomalies, coloration, etc., that happens to all of us. For those of you that are used to wearing makeup to work and get caught last minute on a video forum, this is a lifesaver.

Mirror Your Image

What you see if what you get.

If you are not used to using video technology it can be off-putting at times. One thing that most video technology lets you do is to mirror your image.

Why is this important?

If the mirror setting is not on your Skype/Zoom/Facetime or other video conferencing tool (Webex, Goto Meeting) when you move one direction your image on the screen will move in the opposite direction. You raise your right hand and it will look (TO YOU) as if your left hand is raising. The bottom line, it can be confusing. Not to mention all your facial asymmetries will stand out (TO YOU) and you’ll be like “WHAT is up with my face?”

For Zoom settings, follow the instructions above and when you get to Video preferences choose Mirror My Video.

*If when you see yourself on the screen it all looks normal (and like a mirror) — you move left, your image moves left, etc., that means that the mirror setting is already on.

Additional Tech that is cheap, easy, and useful

I also use a little program called iGlasses from ecamm.com. I use mine for Skype, Zoom, and FaceTime. It can help with lighting and your appearance.

Female Body Armor or Not?

It’s like the 1970’s all over again.

Not wearing your social body armor? Don’t worry!
When working from home, not everyone decks out the same way they do when heading to the office. Not only is it uncomfortable but at home, it is socially unnecessary.

Be Creative

Add a set of yoga blocks, dictionaries, or a shoebox under your laptop. It will raise the camera to eye level and help ensure that your image is cut off at the shoulders.
It also helps with the chin thing that happens to us as we age (male and female)

Men, Do This:

You only need to iron your sleeves and collar (if you wear a button-down).

The tidy area for video of a button-down shirt (You might want to get your cuffs if you talk with your hands)

A Polo style is always a winner in a pinch. But watch the arms!

Keep your sleeves down for video

Don’t do This

It may be comfy, but it is unprofessional and essentially showing up in your PJs — even if the t-shirt is horrendously expensive and handwoven personally by a local cotton grower. This is not an Einstein kinda move, just a lazy one. *remember video is from the shoulders up.

It was funnier when it was Mark Zuckerberg, but I can’t afford the legal fees.

Perhaps a new online clothing trend could be ‘shrug’ for men. Just a button-up shirt demi-top.

*a shrug is a half cardigan or shirt that is designed to only cover a woman’s shoulders and upper chest. Too bad dickies are sleeveless!

On a personal note

Most of us don’t live like this:

Barren, hotel-like environment

More of us live something like this…

Pictures of people, odd furniture, moments around the room.

Or if the whole family is home, this!

Imagine the toys and family room!

Aim your computer camera away from personal items in your environment. It is good practice to have your image space be as neutral as possible.

Rule of thumb: If you wouldn’t invite the people you are meeting online to your home, then don’t invite them in virtually. Create a video environment that is neutral. Use a bookcase, a picture on the wall, a neutral wall as a backdrop for your online meeting space, or an area that does not have highly personal content.

And most important

Have some fun.

Let the camera work for you. After a while, you won’t be so conscious of being on camera and you will relax into the online meeting space environment.

After this pandemic is over some of you may go back to office spaces, some of you may find that your business becomes more hybrid — more video conferencing than previously and some office space work — and others of you may find you have enjoyed your (involuntary) foray into the world of online meetings and virtual work.

Be well, stay well, and may your loved ones also maintain their health during this very odd time.

Getting some fresh air sans make-up and with crazy hair

ps. for those of you who have made it to the bottom of this post I would like to offer you up to three complimentary Symbolic Modeling Mini 20-minute sessions to help you move through this most strange of times.

Just go to my contact page and let me know that you would like a complimentary session. Once I receive your message, I will contact you to set up a time to meet. I am making available 30 Symbolic Modeling Mini sessions each month through the end of May and will then reassess what is happening and where my energies might need to go at that time.

Short but Sweet Clean Language Interviewing Update with James Lawley – Dec 2019

Short but Sweet Clean Language Interviewing Update with James Lawley – Dec 2019

This is a 12.5 minute annotated transcript of my conversation with James Lawley – 16 December 2019

Sharon 0:01

Hi, this is Sharon Small. I’m with James Lawley and we’d like to talk a minute about what’s been happening in Clean Language Interviewing over this past year, particularly.

So, James, you’ve been up to some very interesting things recently. Would you mind sharing what’s happening now with the clean interviewing world?

James 0:22

Okay, Sharon, thank you.

I’ve been involved in two areas with some colleagues and I’m really pleased to say that the work I’ve been doing with Jan Nehyba has produced fruit and that we have a paper published which is coming out in the Journal of Consciousness Studies next year.

We looked at 19 Clean Language interviews by experienced Clean Language interviewers and we found out… so how clean are these people? You know, are 100% of their questions staying clean?

We found out that even the best can’t do 100%, but they can get 90% and over. We looked at this feature of Clean Language Interviewing called a “cleanness rating” which allows you to assess quantitatively the ‘cleanness’ or ‘leading-ness’ of an interview.

And we did some statistical analysis on the raters. There were multiple people rating the interviews and we did a statistical analysis to find out just how close those raters were – and they really reached good statistical confidence levels. So that shows that that method of measuring is a highly viable and validated method. So that was great and has never been done before.

And the second area I’ve been involved in with Heather Cairns-Lee and Paul Tosey is looking at, actually, what is this thing called “leading”? If you read almost any textbook on interviewing, it’ll say ‘don’t ask leading questions’. But what you’ll also find is, it doesn’t actually tell you what a leading question is, how you identify one, and what you do instead, other than ask ‘open’ questions. So we started to look at leading questions and we analyzed them and what we found is there are four common ways that interviewers lead. And we identified the characteristics of [each of] those so that you can raise your awareness. Because the bottom line is, if you don’t know that you’re asking leading questions there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it. So we’re writing up our research and we’re hoping to get a paper published on that.

Those are the main areas I’ve been involved in these last 12 months.

Sharon 3:04

So we took something that we knew was working empirically (because we’ve used it) and then we developed the validation process which we had an idea that it worked because we knew how to use it. But now it’s been thoroughly researched and with that paper being published in the Journal of Consciousness Studies, and then the work with Heather Cairns-Lee and Paul Tosey, we are really getting to the those more subtle nuggets that are going to be most useful for people to use and to really make this methodology work to their advantage.

James 3:41


Sharon 3: 42

Super yeah! And on my side of the pond, Yuji Yamagami in Japan has been using this very successfully (the clean interviewing methodology) with quality assurance and risk assessors. When he attended our training last year, he took it home, applied it, and has been having great results.

I haven’t done formal research studies like you, but I have been working for several years now with cause evaluators, cause analysts, and recently, HROs (high-reliability organizations).

So, with the use of Clean Interviewing spreading and the research, the academic research on this becoming more subtle and more specific, have you found consistencies in the value of this Clean Language Interviewing method?

James 5:02

Well, in and of itself, the range of areas that it has been applied to, I think, is itself a validation of the method. If you can take a method and you can apply it in all these kinds of…

Sharon 5:17

HRO’s, root cause analysis, auditing, quality assurance, academic research.

James 5:23

Yeah. For example, a paper came out this year where some Dutch researchers used Clean Language Interviewing to define to find out how midwives made decisions.

Sharon 5:38


James 5:38

Now that’s a pretty important area. If you can improve the quality of decision making of midwives, you know, that’s gonna make people very happy. So that’s one example.

Another is Caitlin Walker has been doing some work looking at how universities design and implement their curricula.

And there’s the Ph.D. that Heather Cairns-Lee produced where she interviewed 30 leaders from across Europe about their mental model of leadership and how they’ve developed that over time.

And she did a really interesting analysis. She looked at all 30 interviews and counted the number and the type of Clean Language questions that she asked. And one of the things she discovered – which completely amazed me – was actually there were four basic Clean Language questions that she asked over 60%, I think it was 69%, of the time. She just needed four questions,

Sharon 6:51

And what kind of questions where those questions, James?

[“what kind of” is one of the four classically clean questions that heather Cairns-Lee found she used in her interviews]

James 6:54


What this shows you is, the ability to ask really simple and clean question just keeps encouraging the interviewee to describe their experience. And that’s what we’re looking for; authentic descriptions. And what this also shows is it can be applied to a whole range of areas.

It’s now got this academic background. And another thing that has come out that is work being done by some researchers in the Czech Republic looking at what kinds of questions are asked [by people] who are not trained in Clean Language? And they’ve found that it can be as low as 30% of questions are clean, and two-thirds of questions are leading.

What they also discovered was, and we knew this intuitively, to go from having 30% of your questions be clean and non-leading up to 90% takes training and effort. It’s not just that you turn it on one day. You need to be able to understand what are leading questions; How are you asking them without knowing. Not deliberately, but the words slip out of your mouth and before you know it, there’s a little nudge in the question. That takes training to get from that level of skill up to the 90% clean level.

And to give you an idea of what 90% means, that research showed that in a full interview, forty-five minutes to an hour, that only one strongly leading question would be asked.

Sharon 8:45

And strongly leading is when somebody adapts or adopts that…

James 8:49

…when there’s real evidence that the question has likely influenced the answer of the interviewee and, therefore, the data now is effectively contaminated.

And so, here is a benchmark for everybody; can you get your interviews down so that, at most, you ask one strongly leading question? That’s the challenge I throw out to all interviewers.

Sharon 9:16

And we have that rating where you can actually look at the words you’re using and make that distinction.

James 9:23


Sharon 9:23

Super. So you and Jan also looked at, and I know that the clean interviewing community has been discussing, about how much training it really would take to get to that 80-90% mark.

James 9:40

Well, there’s been some research that’s not just about Clean Language interviewing, but interviewing in general, that it can take five days of training to get people to get in command of the questions they ask.

If you’re already an interviewer and you’ve got some experience then two days of training in Clean Language is a really good basis. Then you can start recording your interviews, going through them, and giving yourself feedback or getting feedback from someone else of the areas that you are unwittingly leading. That’s what’s required and I’d say a minimum of two days to start to raise the level of skill.

Sharon 10:29

And in January 2020 you and I, for those who are listening or reading, are going to be doing a two-day Clean Interviewing training in California. And this is open to everyone. You do not have to have Clean Language experience to join us. You don’t even have to be an experienced interviewer.

By participating you’ll become familiar with the questions, you’ll get a much better idea of what is leading and the kinds of leading that happen. And we work with real situations in real-time, so you won’t be working with scenarios that don’t make sense to you. You can work in your domain of experience and interest.

So if you’re an academic, quality assurance, auditor, root cause analyst, you work with an HRO, you’re a manager, anyone where it’s important that you get quality and authentic information – this could make a complete difference in how your conversations and interviews go with the individuals you work with.

That is January 18th &19th, 2020 in California, near San Luis Obispo on the beautiful Central Coast near wine country and beaches. So if you want to come to a training and have a vacation at the same time be sure to join us.

James, would you like to add anything about the training?

James 12:00

Just that this is now our fourth year of running this training. And so we know the benefits that people get from it from the feedback that we’ve had from previous participants.

Sharon 12:14

Yeah. Small business people, nuclear operators, all sorts. So, great. Thank you, James.

And thank you listeners (and readers). And we will hopefully hear from you. You can contact me at Sharon@Cleanlanguagetraining.com.

To find out more about the January training, you can go to www.Cleanlanguagetraining.com, and scroll down to Clean Language Interviewing. It will be about three-quarters of the way down the page. There is more information on that page. Otherwise, just contact me and I’m happy to have a conversation with you.

Clean Langauge Interviewing January 18-19, 2020 with James Lawley and Sharon Small